Editor | On 01, Jan 2010

Message: 305
Posted by: Shuo-Kai Tsai
Posted on: Friday, 2nd March 2007

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Dear TRIZ experts, I am a PhD student at a UK university whose research is focusing on exploring the use of the theory of inventive problem solving in design. As far as we know, TRIZ has been proved useful in helping solve design problems but need to know why it has not been widely accepted by many people. In my research so far, I have some queries and would like to hear your valued opinions regarding these questions. 1. Have you ever had any trouble using TRIZ tools in your design projects? 2. If the answer is Á´YESÁ_, what is/are the  problems you have found when you apply TRIZ in your design projects? 3. Is there any specific procedure you use in TRIZ tools when you apply it to a design? 4. Do you use other creative techniques as well as TRIZ in your design projects? Together or separately? 5. Any significant advantages or problems if you use those techniques together with TRIZ? 6. Have you ever used any TRIZ software? are there any significant advantages or disadvantages when using it? 7. Will you recommend the use of TRIZ in a design? What are your major opinions/problems with TRIZ when you apply it in your design projects? Your opinions are most valued and we thank you for your contributions. Yours faithfully, Shuo-Kai Tsai

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Message: 306
Posted by: Mike Carnell
Posted on: Friday, 2nd March 2007

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Shuo-Kai Tsai,

How have you made the decision that it has not been widely accepted?

Regards

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Message: 307
Posted by: Michael S. Slocum
Posted on: Friday, 2nd March 2007

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1. Have you ever had any trouble using TRIZ tools in your design projects? No
2. If the answer is Á´YESÁ_, what is/are the  problems you have found when you apply TRIZ in your design projects?
3. Is there any specific procedure you use in TRIZ tools when you apply it to a design? Yes, the C&E matrix and/or the roof of the houe of quality and/or the design matrix from Axiomatic Design indicate negative correlations–each negative correlation is a compromise that needs to be resolved–utilize the TRIZ methodology for resolution
4. Do you use other creative techniques as well as TRIZ in your design projects? Together or separately? Yes, together or seperate as required: TILMAG, Heuristic Redefinition Process, Brain Stroming, Brain Writing, and predominantly TRIZ…different problems require different apporaches so a holistic systematic innovation framework is necessary
5. Any significant advantages or problems if you use those techniques together with TRIZ? Significant advantages–you have the right method for the right desired output instead of one method fits all
6. Have you ever used any TRIZ software? are there any significant
advantages or disadvantages when using it? Yes, TRIZ may be applied to software design and problem resolution just as to any other deiscipline. I believe the Art of Software DEsign is long overdue for the addition of some Science and Axiomatic DEsign and TRIZ help achieve that goal (as does CMM for example)
7. Will you recommend the use of TRIZ in a design? What are your
major opinions/problems with TRIZ when you apply it in your design projects? Yes, my main opinion would be that design happensa AFTER conceptualization—so that begs a question—where does the conceot come from? I hope the answer is a systematic process that is repeatable, predictable, and reliable—-TRIZ meets those requirements.

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Message: 308
Posted by: Gregory Frenklach
Posted on: Friday, 2nd March 2007

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1. Have you ever had any trouble using TRIZ tools in your design projects?

Never
3. Is there any specific procedure you use in TRIZ tools when you apply it to a design?

Yes. Definition of conformity between real system and it’s TRIZ model.
4. Do you use other creative techniques as well as TRIZ in your design projects?

I use value-engineering analysis.
5. Any significant advantages or problems if you use those techniques together with TRIZ?

The advantage of the value engineering is in its strong functional approach that enables us to state design problems correctly
6. Have you ever used any TRIZ software? Are there any significant
advantages or disadvantages when using it?

Yes. I used soft of Invention Machine, when it was in Russian (90-th principles effects standards) I did not find it useful that time.

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Message: 319
Posted by: Ellen Domb
Posted on: Saturday, 3rd March 2007

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On this discussion, you will most likely find people who are successfully using TRIZ.   And I am also curious why you think that it is not being accepted–how many people would you regard as “high” acceptance?   Anyhow, answers to your questions:

1. Have you ever had any trouble using TRIZ tools in your design projects?  NO
2. If the answer is Á´YESÁ_, what is/are the  problems you have found when you apply TRIZ in your design projects?
3. Is there any specific procedure you use in TRIZ tools when you apply it to a design? Ideality and function modeling first, then resource analysis and system operator, then whatever tools make sense depending on the analysis steps.
4. Do you use other creative techniques as well as TRIZ in your design projects? Together or separately?  QFD and other forms of customer research, others depending on the nature of the problem.
5. Any significant advantages or problems if you use those techniques together with TRIZ? Advantage–be sure you are working on the right problem
6. Have you ever used any TRIZ software?  YES–Invention Machine and CREAX.   are there any significant
advantages or disadvantages when using it?  Advantages:  Invention Machine:  the search tools make it possible to do in depth research very easily.   Both:  the large collections of pictures of inventions stimulate creativity for people who have pictorial-oriented brains.
7. Will you recommend the use of TRIZ in a design? YESWhat are your major opinions/problems with TRIZ when you apply it in your design projects?  Problems when NOT using it.   Main problem with using it is when people aren't patient enough to do the modeling of the problem (see Gregory Frenklach's remarks)

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Message: 324
Posted by: Shuo-Kai Tsai
Posted on: Monday, 5th March 2007

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Dear all,

 

Thank you for your interest in my question regarding the use of TRIZ.

 

In reply to some of you questioned that my statement on TRIZ has not been widely accepted. My concern is based on the results from a survey which I consulted with several companies based in the UK. Their responses to me showed that even though they did not deny that TRIZ is a powerful and useful technique in helping them solve their design problems, they all found that it is not easy to apply TRIZ into their design projects. Some of these companies have even attended some TRIZ training programmes and tried to introduce TRIZ into their design teams bur rarely make use of it.

 

I believed that many people may find they have difficulties to understand TRIZ tools and to effectively use them. Therefore, my hypothesis in my research will be based on trying to identify and explore methods to improve the use of TRIZ in design. As far as I know, there is no specific or clear procedure to guide designers which tool in TRIZ to start with their design problems and which tool to use afterwards etc. Maybe, hopefully, the result of my research will be able to identify and develop a procedure to introduce designers step-by-step in how to use TRIZ tools and make TRIZ more effective and acceptable to be used in design.

 

I would welcome any opinions and suggestions from anyone who is expert in or interested in TRIZ.

 

Yours faithfully,

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Message: 325
Posted by: Mike Carnell
Posted on: Monday, 5th March 2007

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Shuo-Kai Tsai,

That is a long jump from several companies you have experience with in the UK (who are familiar with it and can't seem to figure out how to use it) to “not being widely accepted.” I would think that there is someone involved with your paper that will have the rigor to show you where this, based on what you have said, is a completely unfounded statement.

Definitions aside, of the innovation tools it is probably the most widely accepted. Now you have a quote that is as completely unfounded as yours assumption. What are you going to publish?

A little responsibility please.

Good luck.

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Message: 326
Posted by: Priyavrat Thareja
Posted on: Monday, 5th March 2007

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Hi all,

In-no-wiat.

These are the freeks who do not wait to let things happen by itself, and they start thinking of ingenious ways to expedite solution-finding. :-).

That was in lighter vain.

Waiting is not easy. (and I am struggling to pick up some contradictions myself to my anti-knowledge  (lack of it) of TRIZ, but all in vain ).

Like me, when one does not understand some thing there are three reasons:

1. Lack of Motivation or Interest

2. Brains, and /or aptitude

3. Lack of problem solving/ guidance.

Something must have stopped them in UK and me.

I am indeed innovative, being successfully designed (including DESIGN) solutions to complex problems, but alas, I could have been more keen to Think the TRIZ way!   Any Help?

Further what areas do you have to improve teaching of …( including TRIZ). That will be a great help.

Thank you for your inputs (guidance) in advance.

Regards

Priyavrat

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Message: 327
Posted by: Mike Carnell
Posted on: Monday, 5th March 2007

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Priyavrat,

After reading such a succinct post I can't imagine why you are struggling with TRIZ.

My experience with TRIZ is not broad enough to make what I feel would be a recomendation with any credibility. I would contact the guys at Statistical Design Institute (SDI) and see what they would recomend. These guys specialize in DFSS and associated tools and methoidology. They go all the way beck to the days of the Six Sigma Research Institute at Motorola so they have as much if not more practical application than most in the creativity/invention/innovation area.

Good luck.

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Message: 328
Posted by: Ellen Domb
Posted on: Monday, 5th March 2007

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I'm going to take a risk of getting thrown out of the forum, but you have been kind enough to share your research, and I want to prevent you from acting on bad information.  

The kindest thing I can say is that you have described TRIZ badly taught.   If TRIZ is well taught, the students very quickly learn how to use it in real problems and get real results.   (TRIZ is not unique–the same is true of badly-taught chemistry or history or grammar or …)

Unfortunately, badly-taught TRIZ is fairly common, sometimes because the teacher does not really understand TRIZ and is repeating rote scripts, and sometimes because the teacher understands TRIZ but doesn't know how to teach to the specific needs of the particular audience.  

So, you have offered us good data (a lot of people who have attended a TRIZ class aren't able to use it) but you have drawn the wrong conclusion (there is no teachable method that will make people effective at using TRIZ and picking the right tool at the right time to get good benefit.)  

That's MY OPINION– let's hear from some other TRIZ users, learners, teachers, ….

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Message: 329
Posted by: Prakasan K
Posted on: Tuesday, 6th March 2007

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1. Have you ever had any trouble using TRIZ tools in your design projects? No
2. If the answer is Á´YESÁ_, what is/are the  problems you have found when you apply TRIZ in your design projects?
3. Is there any specific procedure you use in TRIZ tools when you apply it to a design? Yes. For a new product design, start with System Operator, identify the resources, use IFR, use contradiction matrix.
4. Do you use other creative techniques as well as TRIZ in your design projects? Together or separately? Yes, 6Thinking Hat (TM), MindMapping, Forced Association, Patent searching
5. Any significant advantages or problems if you use those techniques together with TRIZ? Yes, explore the wider spectrum, do it in a group, understand various possible solutions from other industry
6. Have you ever used any TRIZ software? are there any significant
advantages or disadvantages when using it? Yes, used a Creax for a shortwhile.
7. Will you recommend the use of TRIZ in a design? What are your
major opinions/problems with TRIZ when you apply it in your design projects? Yes. Have flexible boundary while using certain techniques like System Operator for resources, understanding super-system.

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