Editor | On 01, Jan 2010

Message: 1577
Posted by: paddydaddy
Posted on: Monday, 9th March 2009

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Hi all please can someone give me a hint how I could use Triz to come up with idea to solve the following problem: I want low cost and this leads me to buy from low cost suppliers (read as India/China/Czechoslovakia) The issue I have is a perception that these are low quality. Especially for metal castings. Other suppliers can make the same peice at better quality. I know from experience what I can practically do to solve the problem. Is Triz an appropriate tool to use?

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Message: 1578
Posted by: Ellen Domb
Posted on: Monday, 9th March 2009

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1.   See the article on how to deal with cost issues in TRIZ at https://the-trizjournal.com/archives/2006/01/03.pdf

Don't just use the 40 principles and try to make them fit the situation.   Use Ideality, 9 Windows, Function Analysis, Resources, Separation Principles, …  use ALL of TRIZ.  

2.  Generally TRIZ is used for problems that don't have conventional solutions–there is nothing wrong with applying TRIZ to a problem when you already have a solution, to try to develop more solutions, or more creative solutions.   But, if you already have a solution, generally you only want more if there's some problem with your current solution.  Is that the situation? 

3.   If you only have a perception of lower quality from the lower cost providers, you should get data.  You might be wasting your time trying to solve a problem that isn't real!  If you have data, there are lots of sources of information (see http://www.isixsigma.com for example) on how to calculate the cost of poor quality–including the costs of detection, audit, measurement, and re-work, among others.   When properly calculated, the “low cost” supplier may be more expensive.   Using cost of quality (or “cost of poor quality”–both terms are common) can save you a lot of time in selecting suppliers.    

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Message: 1580
Posted by: padddydaddy
Posted on: Tuesday, 10th March 2009

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First of all thank you for your wonderful article.
I think I got stuck looking at a technical contradiction cost vrs quality.
So is it appropriate to look at the problem as : We want low cost suppliers and we dont want low cost (poor quality distant) suppliers. 
a physical contradiction ==> principles of seperation:

1 Separation in time. Order fast turn around from local suppliers?  Suppliers create QA Assured stock. Test before ship

2. Separation in space: Have suppliers setup consignment or a dedicated cell on our site?  

3. Separation between parts and the whole: (sub system) Here a concentration diagram of defect locations in castings. Plus we send our experts to the supplier. Or we help low cost supplier buy our previous supplier (super system)

4. Separation upon condition. Maybe we setup dedicated cell/quality regime at the supplier to fix quality. Or use an approval process to assess castings pattern by pattern

I guess I could match inventive principles to the seperation methods? To fill out the solution space

Then rank the solutions against IFR. elimiate harm, increase benefits, add no new harm, add no new cost inventive, reduce costs etc?

Then to combine as many solutions as I can into a system. Which I guess I would then compare with patterns of evolution to see how far I can push it?

Would that be the triz way to do it? Or is it more appropriate to look for the technical contradictions that make up the cost – number of patterns, weight of material, allowed porosity, amount of waste material…

The fact that I can see two ways forwards is a little disturbing is this an example of 9 screens ?

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Message: 1582
Posted by: Ellen Domb
Posted on: Tuesday, 10th March 2009

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Developing multiple solution paths should be exciting, not disturbing, and yes, one reason is that you are now thinking about both the supersystem and subsystem as possible venues for the solution. After you create a group of possibilities, you can make your decision based on business issues (risk, cost, difficulty of managing, availability of resources, etc.) or on TRIZ issues (highest ideality is best) or on a hybrid.

There is no one best way to use the tools. The flowchart in my article is one way that works for beginners, but experienced TRIZ practioners know that there are frequent loops in the flow–when you learn something new about your situation, it gives rise to new contradictions, or new possibilities of trends of evolution, etc. Your example shows that you are exploring quite broadly–sounds like a challenging case study! Maybe you will write a TRIZ Journal article when you have a solution that your business is going to implement?

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Message: 1586
Posted by: Lobo
Posted on: Tuesday, 17th March 2009

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Hi Paddydaddy,

I'm also a beginner in TRIZ, but I have some ideas. As I can see, you have arrived to the technical contradiction, so the next step should be to identify the Idea Final Solution, what is in my meaning a supplier who produces and delivers perfect castings for free. Certainly the “for free” is somewhere virtual. If I want to interpret this to the Contradiction Matrix I can find the following: If I understand the low cost as high productivity, and the high quality as Manufacturing precision then the Matrix gives the followings: 10: Prior action, 18: Mechanical vibration, 32 Colour change, 39: Inert atmosphere.

For me there are several ideas coming out of this: If you apply the principle prior action it tells me that if you apply good preparation with a potential supplier BEFORE starting deliveries, you can reach a better quality for lower price. To tell honestly we had similar successful projects in the near past with casting suppliers.

My other idea is about the principle 39, there is a technology called vacuum casting, what means that there is vacuum generated in the casting dye before the melted metal is sprayed in.

In my meaning this works something like this. Certainly if you want to apply the complete ARIZ methodology, you need to do much more, but that would mean another story.

I hope I could help…

Lobo

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Message: 1588
Posted by: Shree Phadnis
Posted on: Wednesday, 18th March 2009

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Dear PaddyDaddy,

I have a problem, let us all solve the world hunger problem and let's use TRIZ for doing the same. The problem that you have stated is very similar to the problem that I stated out here. It is not that we would not be able to apply some of the concepts of TRIZ for such problems but just that the recommendations that you also get will be too general to implement. in most cases you could even come up with some of the answers without the use of TRIZ.

Let us understand that TRIZ is a method to solve non-typical problems. What do you mean by nontypical problems is problems for which the problem solver has no solutions and conventional knowledge associated with solving such problems has failed to give adequate results. If you apply such methodology of TRIZ to high-level general problems you would also get high-level general solutions.

For example in your case if you want to apply TRIZ you would first want to understand why the suppliers who currently are manufacturing good quality are unable to manufacture at the low-cost. You would need to identify all the problems and partial solutions that are faced by the suppliers and build, process analysis diagrams, value engineering analysis, problem flow networks, existing current knowledge of the the problem as gathered from patent and literature survey, after which it would help you to gravitate and find out what are the core problems, that if solved will help reduce our costs. In fact if you want to study for castings it might also make sense for you to conduct the study of the supersystem where the castings are going to be used, after all this analysis is completed we could then choose the problems to solve using Ariz. Very commonly TRIZ based projects go through stages of information gathering, analysis and then concept generation, the entire cycle for completion of the project is approximately 2 to 3 weeks of work.

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Message: 1601
Posted by: greenbelt01
Posted on: Wednesday, 1st April 2009

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hai,

TRIZ is used to create and to improve products, services, and systems in Industries.

thanks.,

http://www.greenbelt6sigma.com

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