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Breakthrough Thinking by Nadler & Hibino

Breakthrough Thinking by Nadler & Hibino

| On 01, Jan 2010

Message: 1949
Posted by: Upali
Posted on: Thursday, 25th November 2010

I wish to know the TRIZ experts' comments on the above subject

Message: 1950
Posted by: QualityColorado
Posted on: Friday, 26th November 2010

I'm not a TRIZ expert, but here's my 2 cents worth: I've had Nadler's book on Breakthrough Thinking for many years. I read it, and though it is not particularly well-written, I thought it made some useful points. However, the material is different from TRIZ, so there isn't a very good one-to-one comparison. And, while there was some useful information in Nadler's book, it isn't one I reach for repeatedly to use — there are much better dya-to-day references out there than “Breakthrough Thinking”.

Message: 1951
Posted by: Upali
Posted on: Saturday, 27th November 2010

I came to know about the fascinating idea of Breakthrough Thinking (BTT) at a workshop conducted by Prof. Hibino in 2002.In 2004, I applied the principle to solve a factory layout problem. It was very successful and I sent a detailed report to the Professor and it was published by the Chukyo University, Japan in their journal.I am very new to TRIZ and I agree with some of your comments. But I do not know how to apply TRIZ for planning as I do not see a 'contradiction', my be I am still a novice. Could you help pls?

Message: 1952
Posted by: Pentti
Posted on: Sunday, 28th November 2010

One of the paradoxis of TRIZ is that it doesn't fit a competely new things, so you should try create any new solutin (which contains problems). If you can find these problems, you should express them in the contradiction forms. And you will have a solution princuples. So easy?

Message: 1955
Posted by: Jack Hipple
Posted on: Tuesday, 7th December 2010

TRIZ is far more than contradictions. It also includes lines and patterns of evolution, which are key tools in planning and new product development. Thinking about TRIZ as only a contradiction table really limits its usefulness.

Message: 1956
Posted by: Carlos Dubl? J.
Posted on: Thursday, 16th December 2010

I'm notan expertinTRIZbutI've studiedsomething.

Acontradictionis:wanttwothings,that for some reasoncan not coexist.

Whenyou make aplan,imaginesomethingthatdoes notexist now,thenonemayaskwhynot?Theanswercontainsthecontradiction.
There may becases wherethere is'tcontradictionandsimplydo whatwas planned.

Theproblemariseswhen we havemanycontradictions involvedbetween themand theartariseswhenwe definewhatwe really want.

Message: 1958
Posted by: Nikolai Khomenko
Posted on: Saturday, 18th December 2010

What kind of difficulties you have with Planning? Why traditional tools for planning can not be used?

Message: 1959
Posted by: Nikolai Khomenko
Posted on: Saturday, 18th December 2010


Carlos, when you have set of contradictions or sub-problems that underlining your problematic situation it is a good idea to use OTSM Problem Flow Networks (PFN) approach. It is like some kind of ARIZ for complex problematic situations. It also work for interdisciplinary problematic situation.


Message: 1960
Posted by: Upali
Posted on: Saturday, 18th December 2010

The planning problem faced was: Where to install a new machine in a highly congested factory floor. I had to find a place with minimum movement of existing machinery while facilitating improving productivity.I solved the problem successfully using ?Nader & Hibino-breakthrough thinking? approach. Now that I am studying TRIZ I cannot think how TRIZ can be used in similar situation

Message: 1962
Posted by: Michael Lyubomirskiy
Posted on: Wednesday, 5th January 2011

if the problem boils down to geometric planning optimization then it ought to be solved using relevant tools, either off-the-shelf or custom written (a variant of A* search algorithm, most likely). TRIZ process optimization would make more sense for a problem with tougher requirements and bigger potential solution space, e.g. if geometric optimization were to give you unacceptable results and you were allowed to do some process re-engineering. Basically, if the problem appears “routine” (“level 1” technical problem in TRIZ classification) within its own field then you should first try solving it using routine methods (hopefully with you being sufficiently competent in that field or else able to get experts' input). If in practice it turns out to be not “level 1”, then it may make sense to attempt TRIZ techniques.

Message: 1963
Posted by: Jack Hipple
Posted on: Thursday, 6th January 2011

To REALLY apply TRIZ to this situation, the question that needs to be asked is “why do you need the new machine?”. The Ideal Final Result would be to get teh function of the new machinen without its existence, therefore no new space is required. How much did you challenge yourself about the problem requirements?

The other suggestions are spot on if you are not going to challenge the problem definition and structure. My experience is that if all you want is just a 20% improvement, use the knowledge and optimization skills you have. If you want a breakthrough, use TRIZ

Message: 1965
Posted by: shree Phadnis
Posted on: Thursday, 13th January 2011

I dont know the problem but it seems that you had a physical contradiction of space has to be present and space has to be absent, and one of the ways to resolve is in 3 dimensions , so we could create a framework and mount the machine on the frame work in a 3D.However as I said as I dont have the complete understanding of the situation I might not be right

Message: 1971
Posted by: Nikulin C.
Posted on: Monday, 17th January 2011

I agree that the best way to solve a problem with many variables is using OSTM-TRIZ (PFN), your problem creates partial solutions and these solutions generate new sub-problems (try to recreate the most realistic solution given according to the desired ideal outcome), then identify the porblem and partial solutions that are faced throughout the process, develop contractions, an important point to resolving the problem to find the parameters for measuring the contradictions that way you can make the best decision to solve the problem, it is very effective in decision making for all areas of engineering and business as well. =)